[Echoes]

the thing is, Jesus, that poll is based only on policies outlined in manifestoes. There are many other reasons why i wouldn't vote Conservative; the main one being that it would show my endorsement for their dirty, shock-tactic style of campaigning, playing on people's fears and making big deals out of small issues that get hyped up by the redtop press, such as gypsies - and also having the gall to attack the existing government on policies they don't plan on getting rid of if they get power, such as taking money out of the pensions fund to plug other gaps.

[Lord Love Rocket]

Yeah i know. I'm just glad the Lib Dems don't campaign like that and I love the fact that their biggest policy for the Oxford constituency isn't "Vote For Us To Keep The Tories Out"

[Echoes]

how is that a shock policy? it's encouraging tactical voting, which i disagree with, but that's hardly comparable is it?

you're right, the lib dems don't often campaign like that.

[Lord Love Rocket]

I didn't say it was shock but it is dirty. Utter dirt from the apparent "Party With A Conscience" which is a load of testicles. It's undermining democracy is what its doing. People should be free to choose who to vote for on the actual issues the party puts forward which is obviously what the lib dems are scared off.

I love how you've agreed with my sarcasm to prove me wrong. That always does the trick. Also i never mentioned the word "Often" so that must have come from the lib dem guilty conscience.

"and what is this national quote marks day"

[Echoes]

Lord Love Rocket, on May 3 2005, 05:59 PM, said:

I didn't say it was shock but it is dirty. Utter dirt from the apparent "Party With A Conscience" which is a load of testicles. It's undermining democracy is what its doing. People should be free to choose who to vote for on the actual issues the party puts forward which is obviously what the lib dems are scared off.

I love how you've agreed with my sarcasm to prove me wrong. That always does the trick. Also i never mentioned the word "Often" so that must have come from the lib dem guilty conscience.

Lib Dem guilty conscience? no, it's just i've got the maturity to not be blind to the faults of a party I choose to support - but I support it because it has fewer faults than the other parties. As a supporter of the BNP I'm not surprised you can't recognise honesty and the ability to be self-critical even when it's staring you in the face.

"I didn't say it was shock but it is dirty"
In fact, you didn't precise which of the two. You agree with me that unlike some other parties, the Lib Dem don't usually bother with shock tactics. I'd also argue that using the tactical vote argument is probably the least dirty stratagem around - and it is certainly centuries old. I shouldn't need to repeat myself that I clearly realise it IS dirty and we also agree tactical voting undermines true democracy.

Tactical voting is an inherent flaw that results from our first-past-the-post system where you have little chance of getting your views represented in Parliament at all unless you support the biggest parties. Until we reform our system, you and I are just going to have to accept that every election in a marginal seat is going to call for tactical votes.

Basically, you're way over the top when you say 'utter dirt'. A quick glance at Labour's campaign posters or the deliberate mistakes made by the Tories in their statistics when criticising Labour should put this into context. Thankfully we're still some way from the US standard of dirtiness.

Furthermore, the lib dems are certainly not scared of putting forward policies and sticking their grounds. Their unshocking nature, because they are in the middle of our political spectrum, means they don't have extreme policies that vast sections of the population disagree with - hence their policies have no tabloid appeal. Don't confuse this with not having policies, or being indecisive.

[Forgone Conclusion]

That's one thing i like about the lib dems, they make their policies and stick by them not necessarily because it is the most popular thing at the time, but because it is what they as a party belive is most important and philosophically right - i spps that may be why they don't do so well, because they don't pander to voters

[Bear1992]

either way i think 1 of the groups will fuck sumin up heh, im not sure who i would vote for, plus im to young to vote lol

[sexual_harassment_panda]

Lib dems in the middle of our political spectrum bradley???? :lol::lol:

[Echoes]

yes mate, yes they are.

On the left you have Greens, further left than that you have Respect, an alliance of the socialist parties of old.

On the Right you now find New Labour, which is now pushing the Conservatives to the xenophobic scapegoating outer reaches of the right of the spectrum.

I wouldn't say the Lib Dems are dead centre. On social issues, they favour less government intervention, which tends to be a rightist thing. But they also support the welfare state, which is a leftist thing. It's not strictly speaking correct to think of a political spectrum, but instead we should talk about political cartesian coordinates.

But yes, to all intents and purposes SHP, the lib dems are centre-spectrum.

[Lord Love Rocket]

Well donald i'm not a BNP supporter so thats wrong for one and also lible.

And don't say i agree with you. Fucking diplomatic Lid dem shit.

Justifying the actions of a political party by saying look they arent as bad as the others is not really an arguement. It still makes them a bunch of tossers.

So in effect the lib dems are undermining democracy by encouraging tactical voters, fascists.

They don't stick to their policies just like every other party. They sit on the fence all day trying not to offend anyone. They wouldn't have a clue what to do in government because they couldn't make an actual decision. It just stinks to me of that wishy washy politics they are notorious for.

Fucking Independent and Gaurdian readers who don't have a fucking clue. If they took time to take their head out of their arse and look at the real world they would see they are talking bollocks.

The matter of fact is that all of the major political parties are balls and people shouldnt have to be forced into categories just because they agree with a few policies.

We need someone who has the balls to take the country by the scruff of the neck and sort it out by making decsions for the good of the country and not trying to please voters. Some hardline politics is what this country needs because to be honest at the moment its only going one way:

Down the shitter.

[sexual_harassment_panda]

bradley, on May 4 2005, 12:38 PM, said:

yes mate, yes they are.

On the left you have Greens, further left than that you have Respect, an alliance of the socialist parties of old.

On the Right you now find New Labour, which is now pushing the Conservatives to the xenophobic scapegoating outer reaches of the right of the spectrum.

I wouldn't say the Lib Dems are dead centre. On social issues, they favour less government intervention, which tends to be a rightist thing. But they also support the welfare state, which is a leftist thing. It's not strictly speaking correct to think of a political spectrum, but instead we should talk about political cartesian coordinates.

But yes, to all intents and purposes SHP, the lib dems are centre-spectrum.

well.....................ok fair enough I suppose, although tbh it seems to be a case of where you draw the centre line...

[Gabriel Synthesis]

well the middle usually helps......

[Echoes]

Lord Love Rocket, on May 4 2005, 01:23 PM, said:

Well donald i'm not a BNP supporter so thats wrong for one and also lible.

And don't say i agree with you. Fucking diplomatic Lid dem shit.

Justifying the actions of a political party by saying look they arent as bad as the others is not really an arguement. It still makes them a bunch of tossers.

So in effect the lib dems are undermining democracy by encouraging tactical voters, fascists.

They don't stick to their policies just like every other party. They sit on the fence all day trying not to offend anyone. They wouldn't have a clue what to do in government because they couldn't make an actual decision. It just stinks to me of that wishy washy politics they are notorious for.

Fucking Independent and Gaurdian readers who don't have a fucking clue. If they took time to take their head out of their arse and look at the real world they would see they are talking bollocks.

The matter of fact is that all of the major political parties are balls and people shouldnt have to be forced into categories just because they agree with a few policies.

We need someone who has the balls to take the country by the scruff of the neck and sort it out by making decsions for the good of the country and not trying to please voters. Some hardline politics is what this country needs because to be honest at the moment its only going one way:

Down the shitter.

firstly, you have often in person claimed, in jest perhaps, to be a BNP voter. Libel this is not. Sorry if you felt insulted by that, if you're not BNP you have all my respect restored.

You and I do agree on several things, such as the undermining of democracy that is caused by tactical voting.

Stick by their policies just like every other party? The Lib Dems are FAR more consistent in their policymaking than Labour, who went from left wing to right wing; than the Conservatives, who changed direction every time they change leader (very often indeed) and are currently trying to steal voters off the BNP; an even better example of flip-flop was the ID cards fiasco, the Iraq war embarassment, and the very recent change in policy over council tax house value re-evaluation. As for the other parties, I don't know; i don't pay much attention to them.

I have never tried to make the argument that the Lib Dem's appeal to tactical voters is justified; where do you see me say that? I have simply said, correctly, that you're WAY over the top here, and furthermore, my conscience is relatively clear supporting the Lib Dems compared to most other parties out there. This ON TOP of the Lib Dems having far more coherent policies than the other main parties.

There is nothing fascist about tactical voting, furthermore. Stop seeking to make your point using shock words.

"They sit on the fence all day trying not to offend anyone"; no, they have policies that benefit as large a portion of the British population as possible; THAT'S democracy for you.

"The matter of fact is that all of the major political parties are balls and people shouldnt have to be forced into categories just because they agree with a few policies." Again, I agree - how can we have true democracy in a party system. But that has nothing to do with the Lib Dems. Out of the three main parties the lib dems are the only ones who are clamouring for a Proportional Representation system, which would give people who vote for independents or smaller parties an equal say to the ones who vote for the big three. Fascist indeed?

"We need someone who has the balls to take the country by the scruff of the neck and sort it out by making decsions for the good of the country and not trying to please voters" No, now YOU are the one advocating facism. The point of democracy is to reflect the will of the people - the will of the voters. Why you want someone to take this country by the scruff of the neck - much like Hitler did - is beyond me, given you keen you claim to be on democracy.

You can't have it both ways, you wishy-washy extremist!!

[sexual_harassment_panda]

turkish, on May 4 2005, 07:10 PM, said:

well the middle usually helps......

That's my point, we seem to be disagreeing where to draw the *middle*