[Andrew]

Bradley, you're making yourself look silly.

Smashing Starbucks is not what a socialist would do, they'd give it to the government. Socialists are not against enterprise, only private enterprise (and sometimes, as in the case of modern China, not even that).


The type of people who'd smash Starbucks would probably call themselves Anarchists, even though they're not. Anarchists do not necessarily disapprove of the free market, in fact many are for it. The only point at which Socialism and Anarchism are even possibly reconsilable is in a Bakhunin like formulation of some type of Anarcho-communilism, which it would be said is actually a contradication of the ideals of Anarchism.

Che Guevara did not change anything by his deal. He had already ravenged Cuba's agriculture before he died, and no revolution he began after being disowned by Castro was sucessful. Even if you argue he is a martyr (I'd say he was just a narcissist) that still doesn't mean his death actually had any effect, aside from on the t-shirt industry.

This post has been edited by Andrew: 04 December 2005 - 03:32 PM

[where_i'm_calling_from]

andrew's pretty much got it.

i'd like to expand that last point by saying that Che was not a socialist; he was an opportunist. he ruined cuba. the only reason he is as famous as he is is that photo. seriously. its an iconic photo, not an iconic man.



EDIT: and you say his death 'substantially changed things'. aside from the tshirts, exactly what did che's death affect? at all?

This post has been edited by XstraightEDgeX: 04 December 2005 - 03:35 PM

[Echoes]

Look, you're both MISSING THE POINT by trying to look clever by spouting off a history lesson i already know about and agree with you on - I'm not saying he was a socialist or that people smashing up starbucks are either... Many moron rioters consider themselves socialists and consider Che a martyr for their cause, irrespective of the falsehood of both claims.

If historical accuracy bothers you so much, go back over what I said and replace the word 'socialists' with the word 'Generic Anti-Government Rebels'; the point being made to misterj still stands:

Quote

making someone a martyr, significantly changes, any particular situation, anyway

This post has been edited by bradley: 04 December 2005 - 03:42 PM

[where_i'm_calling_from]

isn't the point to identify martyrs that changed something though? or had an impact? i don't see anything tangible except tshirts from che.

[Echoes]

XstraightEDgeX, on Dec 4 2005, 03:42 PM, said:

isn't the point to identify martyrs that changed something though? or had an impact? i don't see anything tangible except tshirts from che.

An icon that has no effect on people isn't an icon...

[where_i'm_calling_from]

...so you're saying that the effect that che had on the world was to leave a nice tshirt. great.

[Andrew]

bradley, on Dec 4 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

XstraightEDgeX, on Dec 4 2005, 03:42 PM, said:

isn't the point to identify martyrs that changed something though? or had an impact? i don't see anything tangible except tshirts from che.

An icon that has no effect on people isn't an icon...

That's bull. For a start, misterj said "significant changes", not having an effect. The two are not the same. Regardless, he was talking in change in situation, not people. Che didn't cause any changes through being a martyr, and it's easy to argue that every person has some effect on other people, that's just a negligible consideration.

[Echoes]

OK, fair enough, it's true that apart from the many rebels that cite Che as an inspiration and motivation for their activities, and what has now become a mass commercialisation of his image, and the films about his life, his death has had little 'tangible' effect directly on Ed's life, and he can make that point. It's impossible to quantify the increase in rebellion, for example, due to the martyrdom of a rebel icon, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I don't think it's possible to agree with misterj's point about martyrdom; the Jesus example was very good. More recent ones I can think of would be Rodney King (you don't have to die to be a martyr), Mandela or Gandhi.

This post has been edited by bradley: 04 December 2005 - 06:48 PM

[Andrew]

bradley, on Dec 4 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

OK, fair enough, it's true that apart from the many rebels that cite Che as an inspiration and motivation for their activities, and what has now become a mass commercialisation of his image, and the films about his life, his death has had little 'tangible' effect directly on Ed's life, and he can make that point. However, I don't think it's possible to agree with misterj's point about martyrdom; the Jesus example was very good. More recent ones I can think of would be Rodney King (you don't have to die to be a martyr), Mandela or Gandhi.

How was Rodney King a martyr? Not every victim is a martyr, even if they're later used to front a cause. He wasn't beaten up for a cause, nor did he choose to sacrifice his health for one. he was just some poor bastard who was victimised. That's like arguing that a tramp who freezes to death in winter is a martyr.

Anyway, what rebels ever cite Ché as an inspiration? Genuine rebals, that is, not spotty schoolboys.

[Echoes]

Quote

Anyway, what rebels ever cite Ché as an inspiration?

large amounts of south american, african and chinese marxist rebels for starters and it would be ridiculous to argue otherwise. If he were not an inspiration, his image would never have made it to the mass market. You're right in also spotting that many 'spotty schoolboys' were inspired by his rejection of a bourgeois lifestyle for his cause, socialist or otherwise. He's become an icon for the left wing as a whole, not just his particular brand of socialism.

Ed, as for Che not being a socialist, you might want to read Man and Socialism in Cuba. Whatever his personal reasons for trying to spread socialism through south america, opportunism or whatever, that was his spoken cause.

Look, this is all taking us far from the point at hand. Please don't think I'm defending guevara - he executed hundreds if not thousands of people and (in my opinion) did a great deal of harm to cuba, as did castro.

Quote

Not every victim is a martyr, even if they're later used to front a cause

sure; but in the context of this debate, where misterj is saying it's fine to make Bin Laden a 'martyr' since it would have no effect, Bin Laden is going to be imprisoned/executed for past actions, irrespective of whether he renounces his cause or not. He could become a devout catholic, that wouldn't change a thing - hence even if he doesnt choose suffering/death over capitulation, misterj still considers him a martyr - hence I'm responding to that.

As for rodney king, the assault was racially motivated. Being black isn't a thing you choose, but is tantamount to a 'cause' in this case. Nobody said racism is logical.

This post has been edited by bradley: 04 December 2005 - 07:26 PM

[Droogie]

i sure as hell wouldnt know who che guevara was if it wasn't for all the T shirts and rage against the machine. the t shirt makes lots of kids find out who he is because they see cool people/bands wearing it.

[Andrew]

The motivationof the attacker is completely irrelevant when talking about martyrdom. Becoming a martyr is an act of concent, it is a person deciding to die for a cause. Rodney King was not a martyr. In fact, by your definition, everyone who is killed or attacked because of any motivating factor is therefore a martyr to that factor, e.g. if I beat you up because you've got got an ipod and I have a creative zen, you then become a martyr for the cause of the proliferation of Apple.

This post has been edited by Andrew: 04 December 2005 - 07:54 PM

[Forgone Conclusion]

I like the irony a socialist is used to sell tickets for a capitalist cause

[misterj]

Killing a leader, or figuerhead, doesn't always mean that they become martyrs, and things change for the worse. When we executed most of the German leaders after WW2, it nipped the Nazis in the bud, period, no significant martyrs there, eh people?

[paddys wink]

blah,blah blah talk is cheap lets just hang the bastards

[Forgone Conclusion]

Wow, waytogo raise the bar of maturity....

[Echoes]

misterj, on Dec 4 2005, 08:22 PM, said:

Killing a leader, or figuerhead, doesn't always mean that they become martyrs, and things change for the worse. When we executed most of the German leaders after WW2, it nipped the Nazis in the bud, period, no significant martyrs there, eh people?

i don't disagree, but Nuremberg was a specific scenario. I personally don't think the world would be considerably worse off (apart from the short term with lots of terrorist acts of retribution) with saddam/osama executed, but the outcome could be worse than simply having them waste their life away in jail.

Ending their life there and then pretty much preserves their legend in the long term, whereas letting them rot away in jail, even if it feels a bit awkward having them around, means they spend a large amount of their life just getting older and more decrepit, something hardly flattering for them and inspiring for the rest of us. As we see in Russia today where Stalin's shadow is still cast over the country, a country might not be released from that person's influence long after their death if they were active and powerful til the end of it. What we need is more 'saddam in his underpants' style pictures, rather than having him strapped to a table crucifiction-style and injected with a cocktail of poisons.

[Forgone Conclusion]

Although allowing them to live can often aid their cause. Imprisoning Hitler after the Munich Putsch let him write Mein Kampf, ad imagine how things would have been different if Nelson Mandela was killed rather than imprisoned...

[paddys wink]

its not about maturity LAD,ii is about what is right.the softer you go on these fuckers the harder they come down on you.wishy,washy liberal sentimentality does FUCK ALL they just sit back,smile and get stronger.so what if you make a few martyrs,better a dead terrorist than some fucking crazed lunatic walking around asdas with a sentex waistcoat.they are like vermin,the more you kill the less there are. so it still stands.......................hang them all ........just remember these fuckers would kill you,your family and everything you care about and think they were justified in doing so

[Gabriel Synthesis]

i think we should have more saddam made to take it like a bitch photos